Hi all, and welcome to the communications thread for the Smash 4 Senate!
Founded on 1/12/2015, the Smash 4 Senate (otherwise known as the Australian Ruleset Committee) is a group of Tournament Organisers and top players from each region around the country. The primary goal of this group is to create a unified nationwide ruleset for Smash 4.
The main purpose of this thread is to communicate important information about senate discussions. This may include information such as official rulesets or feedback surveys.
12/09/2015 13:25:14
ZZ duck hunt
12/09/2015 13:24:06
12/09/2015 13:24:06
#BanDuckHunt
12/09/2015 17:49:36
12/09/2015 17:49:36
I represent qld that don't play smash
Duck hunt is bad
No duck hunt
12/09/2015 20:52:30
Duck hunt is bad
No duck hunt
12/09/2015 20:52:30
Contact your local #Hopedealer today!
12/10/2015 00:45:49
12/10/2015 00:45:49
Good to see more clarification on things like Koopacides and stuff.
12/10/2015 02:44:23
12/10/2015 02:44:23
#LegalizePacLand
12/10/2015 03:10:07
12/10/2015 03:10:07
1-stock Lylat cruise only
12/10/2015 03:18:39
12/10/2015 03:18:39
legalise omega pacland x
12/10/2015 03:22:39
12/10/2015 03:22:39
Happy that Mii customs are allowed.
miis all the way woooo
12/10/2015 10:23:41
miis all the way woooo
12/10/2015 10:23:41
Do we really have to run this for "1-2 months"? One tournament and I'm already sick to death of it. Duck hunt sucks. Just removing duck hunt would actually fix the following 2 problems.
1) Bans feel really monotonous. The majority of my matches we did rock paper scissors and then thought of the arduous banning ahead and just said "fuck it where do you want to play?". 2-2-1 seems a lot better than 2-3-1.
2) Duck Hunt is legal
12/10/2015 22:20:11
1) Bans feel really monotonous. The majority of my matches we did rock paper scissors and then thought of the arduous banning ahead and just said "fuck it where do you want to play?". 2-2-1 seems a lot better than 2-3-1.
2) Duck Hunt is legal
12/10/2015 22:20:11
Im holding back the 7 stage starter from Smashbox cos i feel most of QLD is like ziv and cbf with long stage ban processes.
It seems Hypest Team has done some objective research and trials on the argument that 2 stock takes too long and come to the conclusion that this argument is null and void.
http://hypestteam.com/blog/2015/12/10/smash-4-2-stocks-vs-3-stocks/
Personally i agree with this whole article. Except the part where electric claims to be Smashbox TO, omg what a liar.
12/10/2015 22:10:17
It seems Hypest Team has done some objective research and trials on the argument that 2 stock takes too long and come to the conclusion that this argument is null and void.
http://hypestteam.com/blog/2015/12/10/smash-4-2-stocks-vs-3-stocks/
Personally i agree with this whole article. Except the part where electric claims to be Smashbox TO, omg what a liar.
12/10/2015 22:10:17
Ziv, you're banning ONE extra stage. (2-3-1 over 2-2-1) Your comment just sounds extremely lazy and as if you are trying to circumvent the process.
Being over it after one tournament and not even giving it a real go are two different things. It sounds like you are in the latter camp.
12/10/2015 22:56:42
Being over it after one tournament and not even giving it a real go are two different things. It sounds like you are in the latter camp.
12/10/2015 22:56:42
I'll probably be forced to give it a real go for the coming weeks, but I really don't forsee my opinion changing at all. I suppose banning 3 stages is pretty much the same as banning 2 since duck hunt is an auto ban anyway.
12/10/2015 23:11:24
12/10/2015 23:11:24
2-2-1 doesn't even work, I assume you might have meant 1-2-1 or 1-2-2-1? Not sure which though.
If you hate striking from 7 stages that much you can always ask to strike first and strike your 3 stages all in one go. If you strike second, you only have to remember the two stages your opponent just struck, it shouldn't be difficult or time consuming to say "alright you can choose from these two stages/I strike everything except X and Y", especially if you are as adamant about Duck Hunt as you appear to be. If you do actually main Ganon I understand your gripes with the stage, it can be pretty rough for him.
The formalities of the striking procedure were chosen as it provides the most neutral of the 7 stages to start on and it gets there as quickly and in as balanced a manner as possible.
12/10/2015 23:28:44
If you hate striking from 7 stages that much you can always ask to strike first and strike your 3 stages all in one go. If you strike second, you only have to remember the two stages your opponent just struck, it shouldn't be difficult or time consuming to say "alright you can choose from these two stages/I strike everything except X and Y", especially if you are as adamant about Duck Hunt as you appear to be. If you do actually main Ganon I understand your gripes with the stage, it can be pretty rough for him.
The formalities of the striking procedure were chosen as it provides the most neutral of the 7 stages to start on and it gets there as quickly and in as balanced a manner as possible.
12/10/2015 23:28:44
Pazx said:
2-2-1 doesn't even work, I assume you might have meant 1-2-1 or 1-2-2-1? Not sure which though.
I wasn't suggesting 2-2-1 on the current stagelist, I was saying when Duck Hunt gets removed 2-2-1 feels nicer than the 2-3-1 we have when duck hunt is legal.
12/10/2015 23:15:37
Zivhayr said:
Pazx said:
2-2-1 doesn't even work, I assume you might have meant 1-2-1 or 1-2-2-1? Not sure which though.
I wasn't suggesting 2-2-1 on the current stagelist, I was saying when Duck Hunt gets removed 2-2-1 feels nicer than the 2-3-1 we have when duck hunt is legal.
You can't strike from 6 stages though, so I'm not sure how it could "feel" nicer. (also i edited my above post with more info).
12/10/2015 23:16:59
Right, I get it. I feel Melee's set up (5 starters and 1 slightly jank counterpick [lylat cruise]) would be my favourite way of doing it. I still don't like this big mess of starters, though.
Regardless, you are correct in thinking my major problem is with Duck Hunt. Little to do with my Ganondorf, though. I just think it's a bad stage all round. I find the stage is constantly attempting to interrupt the fight as much as possible. There's always a duck on screen to soak a projectile, and the dog popping up and stopping your guaranteed kill setup or getting you punished hard is pretty frustrating. It honestly surprises me that people defend these aspects.
Aside from the jank, the more subjective aspects of the stage I hate are the visual aesthetic and the camera position. And the tree is silly imo. Too polarizing with up throws like Charizard and makes Little Mac a complete joke.
Well, here's hoping for a good legal DLC stage.
12/10/2015 23:43:52
Regardless, you are correct in thinking my major problem is with Duck Hunt. Little to do with my Ganondorf, though. I just think it's a bad stage all round. I find the stage is constantly attempting to interrupt the fight as much as possible. There's always a duck on screen to soak a projectile, and the dog popping up and stopping your guaranteed kill setup or getting you punished hard is pretty frustrating. It honestly surprises me that people defend these aspects.
Aside from the jank, the more subjective aspects of the stage I hate are the visual aesthetic and the camera position. And the tree is silly imo. Too polarizing with up throws like Charizard and makes Little Mac a complete joke.
Well, here's hoping for a good legal DLC stage.
12/10/2015 23:43:52
I propose Midgar to be legal please.
12/10/2015 23:46:29
12/10/2015 23:46:29
Dog is completely predictable, ducks are somewhat random but easy enough to account for. (I think only their speed is random but i haven't seen any actual research into it so I can't say for sure)
Complaining about them is the same as complaining about the smashville platform.
And jank is just a term people use when they don't understand something and want it banned for selfish reasons. Not going to sugarcoat this, you're just being scrubby not wanting to at least try and learn the stage.
12/10/2015 23:49:18
Complaining about them is the same as complaining about the smashville platform.
And jank is just a term people use when they don't understand something and want it banned for selfish reasons. Not going to sugarcoat this, you're just being scrubby not wanting to at least try and learn the stage.
12/10/2015 23:49:18
Yeah I've seen that argument before. The difference is the smashville platform doesn't actively interrupt gameplay regularly. Why in a fighting game where the goal is to keep track of and defeat my opponent should I have to also consistently be keeping track of ducks and dogs?
Turning the discussion around for a moment, rather than talk about the numerous things that make Duck Hunt bad, what makes it good?
Basically, what aspects of Duck Hunt make it worth having despite its numerous problems?
I agree. I was an advocate for Delfino and Halberd. Seems like a double standard that those were removed and not Duck Hunt which imo is more unrelenting with its desire to interrupt the match than either. I was the first to jump on people when they complained about Halberd hazards, saying that they could easily see it coming.
But really, is that what we want? Are these types of hazards something we actually desire from a stage, or something we have to simply learn and put up with?
If not the former, why even bother having them legal?
12/10/2015 23:56:08
Turning the discussion around for a moment, rather than talk about the numerous things that make Duck Hunt bad, what makes it good?
Basically, what aspects of Duck Hunt make it worth having despite its numerous problems?
Ghostbone said:
And jank is just a term people use when they don't understand something and want it banned for selfish reasons. Not going to sugarcoat this, you're just being scrubby not wanting to at least try and learn the stage.
I agree. I was an advocate for Delfino and Halberd. Seems like a double standard that those were removed and not Duck Hunt which imo is more unrelenting with its desire to interrupt the match than either. I was the first to jump on people when they complained about Halberd hazards, saying that they could easily see it coming.
But really, is that what we want? Are these types of hazards something we actually desire from a stage, or something we have to simply learn and put up with?
If not the former, why even bother having them legal?
12/10/2015 23:56:08
What's your definition of interrupting gameplay?
If the smashville platform comes along when i throw someone or whatever, they can tech and avoid my followup, the same way the dog can help you prevent a punish if you know when it will come out.
Duck Hunt's a unique stage that has walls for extra recovery options, as well as the tree and bush for recovering high. The tree also sets up some interesting air-dodge traps that you can then kill the opponent early with.
Also you're still assuming duck hunt has numerous problems, really you're just too lazy to learn the stage, that isn't a problem with the stage.
Halberd isn't banned for hazards, it's banned because of the ceiling. It's the same reason we ban walk-off stages, except a ridiculously low ceiling is even worse than walk-offs because there's nowhere on the stage that you can avoid early KOs from Rosa or Sheik or DK or basically anyone.
Delfino's the same thing, low ceiling during transition.
Though defending Halberds hazards while calling out Duck Hunt is extremely hypocritical
12/11/2015 00:00:01
If the smashville platform comes along when i throw someone or whatever, they can tech and avoid my followup, the same way the dog can help you prevent a punish if you know when it will come out.
Duck Hunt's a unique stage that has walls for extra recovery options, as well as the tree and bush for recovering high. The tree also sets up some interesting air-dodge traps that you can then kill the opponent early with.
Also you're still assuming duck hunt has numerous problems, really you're just too lazy to learn the stage, that isn't a problem with the stage.
Halberd isn't banned for hazards, it's banned because of the ceiling. It's the same reason we ban walk-off stages, except a ridiculously low ceiling is even worse than walk-offs because there's nowhere on the stage that you can avoid early KOs from Rosa or Sheik or DK or basically anyone.
Delfino's the same thing, low ceiling during transition.
Though defending Halberds hazards while calling out Duck Hunt is extremely hypocritical
12/11/2015 00:00:01
Please stop calling me too lazy to learn the stage. You are attacking me for my opinion. I am actually interested in discussion on this stage and you appear to just want the discussion to die.
When I play on Duck Hunt I am aware enough of the goings on. As I said above I am usually quite partial to stages with fun mechanics that provide unique gameplay experiences. I just don't feel like the ducks and dogs actually add interesting gameplay interaction between players, like the smashville platform example you provided. Having an opponent tech on the platform that is going past and being able to tech chase is interesting and provides both players with a great opportunity to make decisions based on the situation. I personally feel like the Dog and Ducks do not provide these types of experiences.
However as you said the tree and bush do provide some interesting gameplay, as well as the walls for recovery and also edgeguarding options.
Another pro for Duck Hunt is it's a great stage to time people out on.
12/11/2015 00:03:44
When I play on Duck Hunt I am aware enough of the goings on. As I said above I am usually quite partial to stages with fun mechanics that provide unique gameplay experiences. I just don't feel like the ducks and dogs actually add interesting gameplay interaction between players, like the smashville platform example you provided. Having an opponent tech on the platform that is going past and being able to tech chase is interesting and provides both players with a great opportunity to make decisions based on the situation. I personally feel like the Dog and Ducks do not provide these types of experiences.
However as you said the tree and bush do provide some interesting gameplay, as well as the walls for recovery and also edgeguarding options.
Another pro for Duck Hunt is it's a great stage to time people out on.
12/11/2015 00:03:44
Duck hunt promotes degenerate play. Tree camping is very real. I feel like most stagelists just have it on because they feel the hazards aren't as intrusive as say Halberd and the stage itself is fairly flat. There's a dearth of legal stages in Smash 4 but Duck Hunt certainly isn't something that should be on stagelists. Even breaking it down simply, what does it truly add to a stagelist?
Pros
- Fills up the stagelist
- Ducks and Dog aren't too obtrusive if you think hard enough about them and watch them as much as your opponent.
- Unique platform layout.
- Walled stage, something that isn't in the stagelist atm besides walled omegas
Cons
- Unique platform layout actually promotes degenerate play but doesn't add anything unique to the stagelist
- Unpleasant aesthetic
- Keeping track of the ducks as well as your opponent is not really a test of who is the better smash player but who has better peripheral vision and awareness
- We banned Halberd because of its low ceiling but Duck Hunt's ceiling is artificially very low because of the tree. Down throw > down b on Luigi is gonna kill you at fraudulently low percents
- Grass is random and there's no real way of knowing what someone is doing behind there.
Okay then, tell me, what does Duck Hunt add to the stage list and why is it legal?
12/11/2015 00:16:24
Pros
- Fills up the stagelist
- Ducks and Dog aren't too obtrusive if you think hard enough about them and watch them as much as your opponent.
- Unique platform layout.
- Walled stage, something that isn't in the stagelist atm besides walled omegas
Cons
- Unique platform layout actually promotes degenerate play but doesn't add anything unique to the stagelist
- Unpleasant aesthetic
- Keeping track of the ducks as well as your opponent is not really a test of who is the better smash player but who has better peripheral vision and awareness
- We banned Halberd because of its low ceiling but Duck Hunt's ceiling is artificially very low because of the tree. Down throw > down b on Luigi is gonna kill you at fraudulently low percents
- Grass is random and there's no real way of knowing what someone is doing behind there.
Okay then, tell me, what does Duck Hunt add to the stage list and why is it legal?
12/11/2015 00:16:24
I'm sorry that i'm harsh, it just frustrates me that the majority of Aus players haven't even played on the stage (more than a couple of times) and will still argue against the stage like they know what's going on (still get people complaining about close side blast zones lol).
You can't define the stage by the ducks and dog, there's far more to it. It's another long stage with extra recovery options for players, and some characters like Marth benefit a lot from 2D hitboxes because sometimes they swing in the z-axis lol.
What's especially annoying is all this talk of degenerate gameplay/timeouts which doesn't actually happen, except in matchups which get timed out on other stages anyway (smashville and T&C can be just as campy yet they're unanimously legal)
Like nobody provides specific examples because they've never actually done it so it's just annoying that people bring that up as an argument. The only somewhat legitimate concern is Jigglypuff and that's only vs certain characters, and that assumes Jigglypuff gets the stock lead in the first place, and you can also just ban it in that specific matchup and Duck Hunt remains legal in the 98% of matchups it's fine it.
Unpleasent aesthetic isn't a fucking argument lol, FD has a blinding flash yet that's legal, personal preference on camera angles doesn't contribute to whether you should ban AN ENTIRE STAGE.
Duck Hunt's ceiling is completely normal, if you air-dodge and get caught on the tree that's your fault (and d-throw > down-b doesn't even work with luigi anymore lmao). The exact same thing happens on battlefield, dreamland, and town and city with their high platforms. (see, EVO finish).
It's pretty easy to see what people are doing behind grass, if you're so worried don't just walk into it while they're charging a smash or something lol, this claim just speaks of inexperience with the stage.
12/11/2015 00:49:08
You can't define the stage by the ducks and dog, there's far more to it. It's another long stage with extra recovery options for players, and some characters like Marth benefit a lot from 2D hitboxes because sometimes they swing in the z-axis lol.
What's especially annoying is all this talk of degenerate gameplay/timeouts which doesn't actually happen, except in matchups which get timed out on other stages anyway (smashville and T&C can be just as campy yet they're unanimously legal)
Like nobody provides specific examples because they've never actually done it so it's just annoying that people bring that up as an argument. The only somewhat legitimate concern is Jigglypuff and that's only vs certain characters, and that assumes Jigglypuff gets the stock lead in the first place, and you can also just ban it in that specific matchup and Duck Hunt remains legal in the 98% of matchups it's fine it.
Unpleasent aesthetic isn't a fucking argument lol, FD has a blinding flash yet that's legal, personal preference on camera angles doesn't contribute to whether you should ban AN ENTIRE STAGE.
Duck Hunt's ceiling is completely normal, if you air-dodge and get caught on the tree that's your fault (and d-throw > down-b doesn't even work with luigi anymore lmao). The exact same thing happens on battlefield, dreamland, and town and city with their high platforms. (see, EVO finish).
It's pretty easy to see what people are doing behind grass, if you're so worried don't just walk into it while they're charging a smash or something lol, this claim just speaks of inexperience with the stage.
12/11/2015 00:49:08