[Official] Smash 4 Senate Communications Thread

Zivhayr said:
Do we really have to run this for "1-2 months"? One tournament and I'm already sick to death of it.

Running the ruleset at one tournament is not enough, for two main reasons.

1. Not everyone shows up to every tournament. This is pretty obvious, but in order to gather feedback from the whole community, we need to run the ruleset at multiple events in each region.

2. It dampens gut reactions. Something like this is likely to cause outcry from players like yourself, without a substantial amount of experience to back it up. No ruleset is going to satisfy everyone, and if we were to immediately react to the initial community outcry, nothing would ever get done. It is also worth noting that the unhappy players will always be louder than those who are quietly enjoying themselves and having no problem with the ruleset.

You say that your view on Duck Hunt will probably not change, and I believe that. However, there are plenty of people who would benefit from more experience of the stage in order to make up their own minds. I am actually of a similar view to yourself - I think Duck Hunt is a dumb stage and that the style of play it allows is not something we should have in our ruleset. As such, I'm going to be playing on this stage whenever I can, in order to show other players exactly what is wrong with the stage, and using first-hand experience to convince them to share my point of view. I'm sure you have the ability to do something similarly constructive, rather than baselessly complaining here.

---

12/11/2015 00:49:21

Invisi said:I am actually of a similar view to yourself - I think Duck Hunt is a dumb stage and that the style of play it allows is not something we should have in our ruleset. As such, I'm going to be playing on this stage whenever I can, in order to show other players exactly what is wrong with the stage, and using first-hand experience to convince them to share my point of view.

I very strongly disagree with this mindset, it's like calling for Dreamland to be banned because you can run the timer against Mac. Your first hand experience isn't particularly relevant in the grand scheme of things because you are, by virtue of your character and playstyle, a huge outlier in comparison to how other matchups play out on Duck Hunt. I personally am not opposed to what is perhaps the single worst character in the game having a single very strong counterpick stage. I hope that Sydney players are smart enough to realise that Duck Hunt facilitating degenerate play in matches involving Jigglypuff is not reflective of the hundreds of other possible matchups in this game on this stage, and I encourage your opponents (as well as all players) to use their multiple stage strikes and ban wisely.

---

12/11/2015 02:06:58

DH is a viable stage, but does suffer from people abusing its space and the tree for camping. I've been timed out on this stage by Sheik before, and I've seen it happen with jiggs as well. Need I mention Little Mac. There's an easy solution to this problem: strike this stage. Easy. Done. The problem has been averted.

The tree isn’t polarising. In fact, there are many characters that can’t abuse the tree, but do enjoy the space that DH allows, such as Greninja or Falcon. These matchups make up the majority of matches where DH is played, unless a player in unfamiliar with the stage and the camping it has the potential to allow in which case they will learn from it and ban it, like any other stage.

The dog and birds add depth to the stage without being too obtrusive. And yes I would argue that just like any other skill you use in smash, such as dexterity or prediction, situational awareness contributes to being a better smash player.

Every stage can be abused. Even Smashville, which many people argue is the most balanced stage, is easily abused by characters like Sheik, Pikachu and Ness to get ridiculously early KOs. The solution is to simply strike that stage, like any other. DH is no different.
http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2015082922255794

---

12/11/2015 02:09:30

Guys here's a secret. Ban DH vs Invisi everytime.

---

12/11/2015 03:32:09

I can't believe people are trying to get rid of duck hunt when lylat is still a thing, lylat in my opinion seems more polarising than DH and as emery says, if you think your opponent is going to have a significant advantage on this stage ban it, it's that simple. In my experience anyway people far more often ban lylat. People are pretty much wailing on DH because they don't like it as a stage and not because they think it's competitively unviable.

---

12/11/2015 04:00:49

Pazx said:
I very strongly disagree with this mindset, it's like calling for Dreamland to be banned because you can run the timer against Mac. Your first hand experience isn't particularly relevant in the grand scheme of things because you are, by virtue of your character and playstyle, a huge outlier in comparison to how other matchups play out on Duck Hunt. I personally am not opposed to what is perhaps the single worst character in the game having a single very strong counterpick stage. I hope that Sydney players are smart enough to realise that Duck Hunt facilitating degenerate play in matches involving Jigglypuff is not reflective of the hundreds of other possible matchups in this game on this stage, and I encourage your opponents (as well as all players) to use their multiple stage strikes and ban wisely.

My character has a large impact on how the stage plays out, but the willingness of the player to abuse the stage is also a major contributing factor. Many people are going to play on this stage and not have to face an opponent who has the patience to properly abuse the stage. Heck, even I lack the patience a fair amount of the time because I feel guilty about using a strategy like that.

If people want this stage to be banned, they have to use this trial period to show people why it needs to be banned. This means abusing the stage as best they can. If it turns out that Puff is the only character that is able to abuse the stage and that the community is fine with it, then it has every reason to be a legal stage. If, on the other hand, it turns out to be abusable in a notable number of matchups/scenarios, this will not come to light unless we actively encourage people to abuse the stage.

The purpose of the trial period is to run the stage through as much testing as possible. We don't want to encounter a hypothetical scenario where Duck Hunt has been legal for 6 months and people suddenly decide to start abusing it and subsequently have the community calling for it to be banned.

---

12/11/2015 04:03:18

So this stage causes issues with:
Everyone vs. Little Mac
Majority of the cast vs. Ganondorf
Jigglypuff vs. everyone
Not just Jigglypuff! How could we forget our favourite Sheik vs. Lucario https://youtu.be/N36susjEdIs?t=350
Following on from that I'd be very surprised if Sheik can't employ the same tactics vs. other characters with low mobility. And if Sheik can then it's all too easy for Zero Suit, Pikachu, Wario and friends to follow suit OH GOD IT NEVER ENDS.

What does this stage actually ADD to the game that makes up for its issues? The left platforms are located so high up they don't actually impact most games, rendering the stage basically a second Final Destination (or a walled Ω stage I guess) (causing issues with people banning Final Destination and circumventing that by picking Dog Hunt). Except for the grass, ducks and dog, none of which I consider desirable elements in a stage.

It generally has good music I guess.

---

12/11/2015 05:37:40

CubT said:
Guys here's a secret. Ban DH vs Invisi everytime.

It's a secret to everyone

---

12/11/2015 06:03:43

Dean, that was Empire's CP though. Using that VOD doesn;t prove anything

That's the life of playing Lil Mac or Ganondorf. There is nothing stopping you from switching when your opponent picks Duck Hunt. Or better yet, banning the stage.

---

12/11/2015 08:28:52

Yo Dean

I've timed out Empire on Town and City in the same matchup too. I've timed out Deez in a Lucario ditto on Town and City lol. It's a lucario specific issue of not being able to take stocks when behind that hampers him in many matchups on many stages (if lucario falls a stock behind shulk he loses on every stage, we don't ban shulk for timeouts though lol).

Little Mac gets camped out on Battlefield and Smashville too.

Ganon seems legitimately hampered by Duck Hunt but we don't ban stages to cater to Ganon.

---

12/11/2015 10:11:24

For those wondering UQ Jan 2016 will be testing this ruleset also.
Depending on event feedback and times we will stay this way for a while.

---

12/11/2015 10:03:32

I honestly feel like reasoning doesn't matter much if the majority doesn't want to play on it. At the end of the day, despite the competition, we all do this because we enjoy it...and we also make the rules. You clearly have your own reasoning and are not regurgitating what Americans think, but I would still like to add we don't need to mindlessly copy them.

At some point the stage becomes an almost guaranteed ban by people that don't want to play on it...regardless of match up. At this point it doesn't offer anything unique in stage select, it simply guarantees one player either gets Duck Hunt or another stage in their favour, and stage striking loses it's value to a degree.

And all of this is ignoring the idiotic camera angle, hitbox extendo birds, stupidly high ledges, ninja grass and the dog himself.

Personally, I don't think Duck Hunt actually provides anything to stage select outside of PLAYER preference, except for the odd stalling scenario. If Duck Hunts jank is legal why aren't other stages that were legal in Brawl? You can just ban them guys. And by losing it's value, I mean it's sole purpose of existing isn't to be played on for a lot of players/match ups, it's sole purpose of being legal is to guarantee a completely different stage.

There's also a major difference between a characters kit/players style aiming for a time out compared to a stage that blatantly encourages and improves it.

---

12/11/2015 10:20:05

Just to clear up confusion on my opinion on Duck Hunt. This wasn't my first tournament where Duck Hunt was legal. It's not a gut reaction to a stage I was taken to once and immediately deemed it jank without having knowledge of the stage. It's been legal in Perth as long as I remember. My gut reaction however was to an all-starters stagelist, which I will be putting more effort into actually going through the banning process in coming weeks so I can provide legitimate discussion to the process.

However what matters isn't my personal opinion of Duck Hunt, I was hoping to spark discussion so it's good to see legitimate points both for and against Duck Hunt.

My discussion of very subjective elements like aesthetics was not intended to be a point to ban Duck Hunt, just something I felt like saying. That being said:

dean said: It generally has good music I guess.

I have to disagree. Some of the songs sound okay, but the medleys don't flow into each song properly and the loop points on some if not all of the songs are nonexistant. The medleys especially, it's very annoying to have the music suddenly stop and start at seemingly random intervals. At the moment I only have Swan Lesson set to play, which I think has a bad loop point too (I'll have to test this).

AGAIN, I know music isn't a reason to ban the stage, I'm discussing it more as a light hearted side note.

Ghostbone said:
some characters like Marth benefit a lot from 2D hitboxes because sometimes they swing in the z-axis lol.

Personally I don't see this as a good thing, I'd rather have every character be consistent with their hitboxes across all stages. However, I don't really know much about this. Could anyone explain an example of a situation that showcases this?

Another sidenote is Ryu's hitboxes staying out for years upon hitting ducks, which is quite humorous (and has both aided me and gotten me punished in the past), but the same thing happens on smashville/T&C balloons albeit a lot less frequently.

I've definitely seen some good points in this thread for Duck Hunt that I had not considered previously, though, so I'm glad I brought it up.

---

12/11/2015 17:01:19

As a Mac main I am kind of neutral on the addition of this stage. Nothing was wrong with it at SXC, I had my solitary ban to make sure I never played on it. With such a large roster, there needs to be these many stages imo. Stages like battlefield, lylat and dreamland are too similar to only have 5 starters with. If anything Id get rid of dreamland because I dont see how it adds to the stagelist. Any character good/bad on battlefield has the same situation on dreamland.
Played with duck hunt legal for about 6 months in VIC and complained about it nonstop. After 'gitting gud' I realise this stage isnt too bad. Honestly the only thing wrong with it is the camera angle, which isnt even that bad. Seeing my opponents banana get swalloed by a flying duck gets me hard.
7 starters literally has zero change to the first match. Most of the time youre going battlefield or smashville game 1 anyway. First vic tourney today with these rules, and I dont plan on seeing duckhunt game 1.
The only thing atm that I disagree with here is the timer, but hey. It means for a quicker end to getting camped I suppose. #mytwocents Also can confirm. If the stage isnt FD, Little Mac can get camped on it. If theres a platform, theres a way

---

12/11/2015 19:49:06

Here is a Brawl example of wonky Z-Axis interactions:



Basically this Toon Link arrow is missing Zelda during her Din's Fire animation because her leg hurtboxes have moved into the Z-Axis.

I hope this sufficiently explains it.

---

12/11/2015 21:58:28

I think the next point we need to address here is, how much does the lack of Z-axis affect the game?

Zivhayr said:I'd rather have every character be consistent with their hitboxes across all stages

I feel like this is a pretty good point, a stage that just suddenly changes/messes up the fundamental rules of the game is grounds for a potential ban on that point alone.

I've never noticed any hitbox changes on duckhunt though which might mean its not a big deal in any way so I'd suggest that anyone wanting to further the discussion on the legality of duck hunt do some research and find out how big of a difference the lack of a Z-axis makes and how much impact it has on the game.

---

12/12/2015 10:33:04

Well for starters it makes DK's and Greninja's smash attacks more consistently hit.

---

12/12/2015 11:44:54

lets get as much info as we can, I'ma get foxy on the case

---

12/12/2015 11:55:01

wario can circle camp quite easily on duck hunt by using his bike to go between the top of the tree and the bush. i dont do it because i like having fun but if i feel like having money more than fun then ill probably start. its pretty cancerous and probably impossible to deal with for a lot of characters that have below average speed if you go up a stock.

---

12/12/2015 12:22:04

Atyeo said:
lets get as much info as we can, I'ma get foxy on the case

Would it be inappropriate to ask if you could get foxy with me :).

---

12/12/2015 12:49:29

Extra said:
wario can circle camp quite easily on duck hunt by using his bike to go between the top of the tree and the bush. i dont do it because i like having fun but if i feel like having money more than fun then ill probably start. its pretty cancerous and probably impossible to deal with for a lot of characters that have below average speed if you go up a stock.

I've figured out some counterplay. Ban the stage against wario

---

12/13/2015 00:04:47

Just ban the stage shouldn't be a reason to still have the stage in stagelists

Why don't we make great cave offensive legal and if you don't like that I'm sorry but you're just gonna have to ban it.

---

12/13/2015 00:09:41

Just because a few select characters get an advantage is a good reason to get rid of the stage? I thought this was the entire point of bans in the first place.

Sonic times people out on FD does that mean we should consider getting rid of FD? Or should you just ban that stage agains sonic?

So far I haven't heard any convincing arguments to ban DH, the only ones have seem to be X character can time you out on DH, but the characters in these examples I've seen camp out on other stages as well. I don't believe it is a good enough reason to get rid of the stage. The only other argument seems to be the Z axis but as I see it, it just extends options for characters and doesn't seem to be broken or jank in any way.

---

12/13/2015 04:12:46

Flex said:
Just because a few select characters get an advantage is a good reason to get rid of the stage? I thought this was the entire point of bans in the first place.

The stage in general promotes degenerate play in a lot of matchups. A select few become nigh unwinnable but saying it "gives a few select characters an advantage" isn't the point I'm trying to make. The layout in general promotes circle and platform camping in a hell of a lot of matchups. It's neither fun to play as or against which is probably why we don't see these strats used very often.

Not to mention the randomness of the ducks and grass, both far less telegraphed than say a halberd laser and finally the Dog. Yes you can keep track of the dog but in what way is this adding to anything. Randall is similar to the dog except Randall helps people out which is a lot more pleasurable and constant than the dog, which can either kill or save you depending on what's going on at the time.

Finally, what exactly is Duck Hunt adding to the stagelist anyway that it's supporters so fervently need it to stay? Do we really want or need a degenerate, sometimes random stage that can kill or save you at particular moments in our stagelist? I honestly don't think so.

---

12/13/2015 04:32:42

There are actually quite a few reasons to pick duck hunt as a counterpick other than that people can poorly circle camp on it. Firstly it's a really long stage, say I'm playing a character like meta knight that kills mostly off the top and I'm playing against a character that predominantly kills off the sides I'll have an advantage there. There is also a lot of ground space on the stage which is good for character that are fast and like to move about a lot like captain falcon. Another reason to pick the stage is for the safe ledge options. Since the stage is flat on the sides wall jump recoveries are possible, also the tree on the right is a safe landing option in some cases as well as the tree on the left. Speaking of the tree on the left it's very good for setting up kills in the air where you can land quickly and continue the combo. There's a lot of good reasons to pick this stage other than I can poorly circle camp someone.

---

12/13/2015 04:46:28