I'm with the majority here. It has elements of jank, and promotes camping. I don't really care if not EVERY game is a campfest on it, most of them are.
It really just seems to have way more negative qualities than positive ones.
Not to mention, the more stages we removed in Brawl, the better the meta became. All we want is for each game to be more so about the skill of the players, as opposed to the stage itself.
You say things like "just ban it against Wario." but why should we have to? If a stage gives a character that much of an advantage that you pretty much have to ban it no matter what, than it probably shouldn't be legal.
You'll argue that's the point of counterpicking, but with neutral stages, you can still get an advantage on a more balanced stage. If Delfino and Halberd are gone, I can still almost certainly get an advantage on DL or TnC.
I can't really think of any truly neutral/balanced stage that you are forced to ban against certain characters.
12/13/2015 05:23:42
Where am I on this senate
12/13/2015 06:22:32
12/13/2015 06:22:32
Jezmo said:
I can't really think of any truly neutral/balanced stage that you are forced to ban against certain characters.
I believe there is a few. Sonic on FD, Sheik on Smashville, Little mac on FD. I feel that inherently campy characters are going to be camping wherever you take them and they are going to be able to do it effectively on most stages. I honestly dont think the tree allows for free circle camping and there is counter play from a few characters to beat people in the tree. But it seems like my efforts are futile and people are just going to get camped out on other stages and say it was well deserved.
12/13/2015 10:13:26
Wii U: Dr_Ellis
Duck hunt is good.
12/13/2015 10:38:10
12/13/2015 10:38:10
If you get rid of duck hunt u r a FOOL and there is no HOPE(dealer) for Smash 4
Googers the QLD slayer has spoken Your Senate is not FLEX(ible) enough and I should be on it All of your decisions are absolute SHIT(ashi)
12/13/2015 11:00:48
Googers the QLD slayer has spoken Your Senate is not FLEX(ible) enough and I should be on it All of your decisions are absolute SHIT(ashi)
12/13/2015 11:00:48
I don't know whether to play along with the memes or just tell Googers that he's a bloody idiot.
You're a bloody idiot Googers.
12/13/2015 11:08:09
You're a bloody idiot Googers.
12/13/2015 11:08:09
Lets ban every stage that you're forced to ban in certain matchups
So battlefield's gone (ZSS), Town and City is gone (MK), Smashville is gone (Sheik), FD is gone (Little mac is the most obvious example).
So I guess we're left with Lylat and Dreamland?
Oh wait, just because a stage is good for some characters and you probably should ban it in those matchups (which people are arguing is the case with Duck Hunt), doesn't mean the stage has to be banned from the ruleset.
12/13/2015 12:00:47
So battlefield's gone (ZSS), Town and City is gone (MK), Smashville is gone (Sheik), FD is gone (Little mac is the most obvious example).
So I guess we're left with Lylat and Dreamland?
Oh wait, just because a stage is good for some characters and you probably should ban it in those matchups (which people are arguing is the case with Duck Hunt), doesn't mean the stage has to be banned from the ruleset.
12/13/2015 12:00:47
Delfino and Halberd were banned for this though
12/13/2015 12:19:56
12/13/2015 12:19:56
If people are going to compare things like Sheik on SV to a character like DK on Halberd or a heavy camp character on Duck hunt, then Idk what to say. They're really not comparable because the stages are inherently more neutral.
Counter-picks are fun, but frankly, the less stages we have, the better the competition will be / the more skill-based the results will be.
I would also really prefer we stopped with all these passive-aggressive responses. Exaggerations and sarcastic responses don't actually assist in getting your point across.
12/13/2015 12:29:07
Counter-picks are fun, but frankly, the less stages we have, the better the competition will be / the more skill-based the results will be.
I would also really prefer we stopped with all these passive-aggressive responses. Exaggerations and sarcastic responses don't actually assist in getting your point across.
12/13/2015 12:29:07
Umm
Halberd is banned for its low ceiling leading to ridiculously early KOs in a similar fashion to walk-offs.
Delfino for the same thing, except it's temporary and even lower.
Not really balance concerns specifically, especially for Delfino which isn't really unbalanced in terms of skewing matchups.
And Jezmo, something like ZSS on Battlefield is a lot stronger than any of the proposed abusive characters (Jiggs or Wario?) on Duck Hunt lol.
The traditional starters aren't more inherently neutral than Duck Hunt is.
Like if possible TOs should try to get data on stage bans and game 1 picks (with 7 starters). Pretty sure Battlefield and T&C would be banned at a higher or equal frequency to Duck Hunt, while FD would definitely be banned more often.
12/13/2015 12:35:04
Halberd is banned for its low ceiling leading to ridiculously early KOs in a similar fashion to walk-offs.
Delfino for the same thing, except it's temporary and even lower.
Not really balance concerns specifically, especially for Delfino which isn't really unbalanced in terms of skewing matchups.
And Jezmo, something like ZSS on Battlefield is a lot stronger than any of the proposed abusive characters (Jiggs or Wario?) on Duck Hunt lol.
The traditional starters aren't more inherently neutral than Duck Hunt is.
Like if possible TOs should try to get data on stage bans and game 1 picks (with 7 starters). Pretty sure Battlefield and T&C would be banned at a higher or equal frequency to Duck Hunt, while FD would definitely be banned more often.
12/13/2015 12:35:04
Top level ZSS's lose on BF all the time. Campers may also lose on Duck Hunt, but it'll just take 6 minutes of camping on a janky stage that no-one seems to really enjoy.
The actual reason those stages are banned is because it's oppressive. On a deeper level, it's just about how you lose all your options against a DK or something on Halberd because you're perpetually at kill percent. Fighting a Megaman/Wario or whatever on Duck Hunt is similar. It oppresses your options. That's actually the issue. You just end up chasing them and there's very little you can do if they are really intent on it.
Frankly, I don't care either way, but I don't think either side is looking at all the points. I do firmly believe, simply, that we want consistent results, and stages like this just do not assist in that regard. That would be my argument in a sentence.
12/13/2015 12:37:28
The actual reason those stages are banned is because it's oppressive. On a deeper level, it's just about how you lose all your options against a DK or something on Halberd because you're perpetually at kill percent. Fighting a Megaman/Wario or whatever on Duck Hunt is similar. It oppresses your options. That's actually the issue. You just end up chasing them and there's very little you can do if they are really intent on it.
Frankly, I don't care either way, but I don't think either side is looking at all the points. I do firmly believe, simply, that we want consistent results, and stages like this just do not assist in that regard. That would be my argument in a sentence.
12/13/2015 12:37:28
ZSS's lose on BF, and all these characters people bring up can also lose on Duck Hunt.
How is megaman oppressive on Duck Hunt? Megaman doesn't have multiple jumps or amazing aerial mobility, I can't imagine Megaman would even pick this stage over FD or Lylat (especially since ducks can get in the way of stuff).
Wario maybe, I'll reiterate what has been said many times before though, which is that there's no actual evidence that circle camping on Duck Hunt is even a viable strategy (in matchups where it doesn't work on other stages as well).
Nobody abused Duck Hunt at SXC, and Warios, Jigglypuffs and Little Macs were all in attendance.
Until there's actually proof, you can't ban Duck Hunt based upon theory that some characters are oppressive on in. At this stage it's just paranoia
12/13/2015 12:45:15
How is megaman oppressive on Duck Hunt? Megaman doesn't have multiple jumps or amazing aerial mobility, I can't imagine Megaman would even pick this stage over FD or Lylat (especially since ducks can get in the way of stuff).
Wario maybe, I'll reiterate what has been said many times before though, which is that there's no actual evidence that circle camping on Duck Hunt is even a viable strategy (in matchups where it doesn't work on other stages as well).
Nobody abused Duck Hunt at SXC, and Warios, Jigglypuffs and Little Macs were all in attendance.
Until there's actually proof, you can't ban Duck Hunt based upon theory that some characters are oppressive on in. At this stage it's just paranoia
12/13/2015 12:45:15
Have you thought that minus the few people that actually like playing on the stage because PERHAPS because they enjoy some advantage they get on it, that others, EVEN those who may be advantaged on the stage, are choosing not to "abuse" it, simply because to, what looks like to me, the majority does not want to play on it, ever.
And why is "leaving it legal" default when people have clearly stated multiple reasons why they think it should be banned? You haven't actually proven it shouldn't be banned, all you've said is "I disagree x reason is enough for it to be banned"...to several different things. Seems like there's enough "proof" here.
And your last post literally just acknowledged the existence of obstacles. On top of permanently high ledges, a platform that only appears after a round of ducks (it can straight up a combo for example with less predictable than other moving platforms), an obscure camera angle, and bushes that actually obscure vision of a particular area. Add to this how little people seemingly want to play on this stage, what the hell is the point? Ban it isn't a viable answer, at this point it's only purpose for existing is to be banned, and the same argument can be made for delfino or halberd.
Playing against a DK? Just ban Halberd!
Coming from Brawl, I was completely surprised the stage was legal at all(or that it was even a debate).
12/13/2015 13:21:33
And why is "leaving it legal" default when people have clearly stated multiple reasons why they think it should be banned? You haven't actually proven it shouldn't be banned, all you've said is "I disagree x reason is enough for it to be banned"...to several different things. Seems like there's enough "proof" here.
And your last post literally just acknowledged the existence of obstacles. On top of permanently high ledges, a platform that only appears after a round of ducks (it can straight up a combo for example with less predictable than other moving platforms), an obscure camera angle, and bushes that actually obscure vision of a particular area. Add to this how little people seemingly want to play on this stage, what the hell is the point? Ban it isn't a viable answer, at this point it's only purpose for existing is to be banned, and the same argument can be made for delfino or halberd.
Playing against a DK? Just ban Halberd!
Coming from Brawl, I was completely surprised the stage was legal at all(or that it was even a debate).
12/13/2015 13:21:33
All stages give you advantages, i don't see your point. Also, you say the majority doesn't want to play on it, but it's more that there's just a vocal minority who don't like it and most people probably don't care lol (that doesn't mean it should be banned, pretty sure most people wouldn't care if you banned lylat either)
For every person complaining about Duck Hunt here there are lots of people who like playing on it or don't mind it legal, they're just not going to be as vocal about it since they don't disagree with the proposed ruleset.
Also, leaving it legal is the default if there are no good reasons to ban it, if you've actually been reading this thread you'd see that people are replying to each others arguments, clearly there aren't just clear cut issues with the stage that make it banworthy like you imply.
Like if someone gives a reason to ban duck hunt, and that reason applies to a bunch of other legal stages, then clearly it isn't a good reason, and I'll point that out. That's a perfectly valid counter-argument lol.
Also, how do you think I should prove a stage shouldn't be banned? My proof is that the rest of the world has it legal with 0 issues. There's never been any examples of it being abusive to an extent that isn't possible on other legal stages. Pretty much every single tournament in the US has Duck Hunt legal and has 0 issues, same goes for Europe. That's pretty overwhelming evidence and you can't just ignore that.
You being surprised its legal just means you're uneducated about the game, that doesn't say anything about the stage.
12/13/2015 13:40:25
For every person complaining about Duck Hunt here there are lots of people who like playing on it or don't mind it legal, they're just not going to be as vocal about it since they don't disagree with the proposed ruleset.
Also, leaving it legal is the default if there are no good reasons to ban it, if you've actually been reading this thread you'd see that people are replying to each others arguments, clearly there aren't just clear cut issues with the stage that make it banworthy like you imply.
Like if someone gives a reason to ban duck hunt, and that reason applies to a bunch of other legal stages, then clearly it isn't a good reason, and I'll point that out. That's a perfectly valid counter-argument lol.
Also, how do you think I should prove a stage shouldn't be banned? My proof is that the rest of the world has it legal with 0 issues. There's never been any examples of it being abusive to an extent that isn't possible on other legal stages. Pretty much every single tournament in the US has Duck Hunt legal and has 0 issues, same goes for Europe. That's pretty overwhelming evidence and you can't just ignore that.
You being surprised its legal just means you're uneducated about the game, that doesn't say anything about the stage.
12/13/2015 13:40:25
I played on Duck Hunt plenty with Flex at GUF and it was fine.
12/13/2015 13:38:28
12/13/2015 13:38:28
Over two sets we played it 4 times. Only timed out once coming from a player that very much likes to use timeouts.
12/13/2015 13:47:47
12/13/2015 13:47:47
Ghostbone said: Also, leaving it legal is the default if there are no good reasons to ban it
I think it should there should have to be good reasons to have it legal as well. Just because it's already in the stagelist shouldn't mean it gets a free pass. Not saying that there aren't good reasons, I've seen good arguments for it. Certainly the most controversial stage in the list, though.
I'd say the closest stages to being legal in Smash 4 are Pilotwings, Kongo Jungle and Pokemon Stadium 2. They have interesting layouts but stage mechanics that just don't seem to fit in with competitive play. How much is too much?
Out of interest, why is Kongo Jungle not legal? Not saying it should be, but I'm curious as to the actual reason it was banned, since I've been incorrect about the reasons some other stages were banned.
12/13/2015 14:01:43
People live on it til way too late due to its higher ceiling. Also I think the cannon at the bottom may promote camping as you can sit in it for a while, tech your landing and then jump back into it.
12/13/2015 14:05:29
12/13/2015 14:05:29
Let's be real, I never agreed to 7 stages so here's my opinion for conservative 5 stage starter:
Starters:
bf, fd, dl, t&c and sv
Counterpick: lylat cruise
Duck hunt is terrible but if you want duck hunt legal then:
1) you can't have 7 stage starter
2) you bring back halberd and delfino
Crayon, you know full well that both you and flex adore duck hunt, saying that you both played on it and thought it was good holds no weight
SINNERS
12/13/2015 14:07:43
Starters:
bf, fd, dl, t&c and sv
Counterpick: lylat cruise
Duck hunt is terrible but if you want duck hunt legal then:
1) you can't have 7 stage starter
2) you bring back halberd and delfino
Crayon, you know full well that both you and flex adore duck hunt, saying that you both played on it and thought it was good holds no weight
SINNERS
Flex said:maybe if the person playing against it is a vegetable
Also I think the cannon at the bottom may promote camping as you can sit in it for a while, tech your landing and then jump back into it.
12/13/2015 14:07:43
Unless a stage is almost completely the same as another stage (Miiverse to battlefield, different omegas), the fact that a stage is different to every other legal stage means it affects matchups differently and games play out differently, which means it has a reason to be legal (increased competitive depth).
Don't really want to talk to much about Kongo or Pilotwings or whatever because it will derail the thread, but the barrel is the biggest offender on Kongo, and Pilotwings has ridiculous camping spots on the lower platform of the red plane or the jets of the yellow plane.
Aero, why would we bring back delfino or Halberd just because duck hunt is legal? Why can't you do 7 starters with duck hunt? Delfino and Halberd have actually been proven problematic time and time again because of their low ceilings. (again I'll bring up the walk-off analogy, we have walk-offs banned because people die at ridiculously early %s, ceilings as low as Halberds present the same problem)
Duck Hunt is a completely different discussion to those two stages.
12/13/2015 14:12:45
Don't really want to talk to much about Kongo or Pilotwings or whatever because it will derail the thread, but the barrel is the biggest offender on Kongo, and Pilotwings has ridiculous camping spots on the lower platform of the red plane or the jets of the yellow plane.
Aero, why would we bring back delfino or Halberd just because duck hunt is legal? Why can't you do 7 starters with duck hunt? Delfino and Halberd have actually been proven problematic time and time again because of their low ceilings. (again I'll bring up the walk-off analogy, we have walk-offs banned because people die at ridiculously early %s, ceilings as low as Halberds present the same problem)
Duck Hunt is a completely different discussion to those two stages.
12/13/2015 14:12:45
I would like to think that Halberd and Delfino are on a much higher level than duck hunt when it comes to questionable mechanics for a stage. But one of the main arguments of getting rid of duck hunt was that it is easy to time someone out on it and Shitashi who is arguably one of the campier players in the QLD scene only timed me out 1 of 4 games.
12/13/2015 14:11:51
12/13/2015 14:11:51
"my opinion"
I don't need to justify it because I'm super adorable aero
Also because I'm going to bed
12/13/2015 14:14:14
I don't need to justify it because I'm super adorable aero
Also because I'm going to bed
12/13/2015 14:14:14
Well until you justify it there's no reason to even post about it.
12/13/2015 14:16:09
12/13/2015 14:16:09
Didn't we time out on another stage Flex?
12/13/2015 14:16:23
12/13/2015 14:16:23
Flex said:
People live on it til way too late due to its higher ceiling. Also I think the cannon at the bottom may promote camping as you can sit in it for a while, tech your landing and then jump back into it.
Haha, testing it out now you don't even need to tech the barrel because 1) You can aerial out of the hitstun from it 2) if you time it well and don't manage to kill yourself you can shoot yourself horizontally and get back into the barrel and camp forever, being a cannonball has ridiculous amounts of invincibility.
In regards to more stages adding competitive depth I feel like Jezmo has a good point.
Jezmo said:
I do firmly believe, simply, that we want consistent results.
I think having less stages can aid competitive depth also.
12/13/2015 14:17:42